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Hi, Kyteto, you are invited to participate in Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/McDonnell Douglas AV-8B Harrier II. --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 02:04, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Books and Bytes: The Library Newsletter

Books and Bytes

Volume 1, Issue 1, October 2013

Eurasian Eagle-Owl Maurice van Bruggen.JPG

by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs)

Greetings Library members! Welcome to the inaugural edition of Books and Bytes, TWL’s monthly newsletter. We're sending you the first edition of this opt-in newsletter, because you signed up, or applied for a free research account: HighBeam, Credo, Questia, JSTOR, or Cochrane. To receive future updates of Books and Bytes, please add your name to the subscriber's list. There's lots of news this month for the Library, including new accounts, upcoming events, and new ways to get involved...

New positions: Sign up to be a Visiting Scholar, or a Volunteer Librarian

Loves Libraries: Off to a roaring start this fall in the United States: 29 events are planned or have been hosted.

New subscription donations: Cochrane round 2; HighBeam round 8; Questia round 4... Can we partner with NY Times and Lexis-Nexis??

New ideas: OCLC innovations in the works; VisualEditor Reference Dialog Workshop; a photo contest idea emerges

News from the library world:n joins the National Archives full time; the Getty Museum releases 4,500 images; CERN goes CC-BY

Announcing WikiProject Open: WikiProject Open kicked off in October, with several brainstorming and co-working sessions

New ways to get involved: Visiting scholar requirements; subject guides; room for library expansion and exploration

Read the full newsletter

Thanks for reading! All future newsletters will be opt-in only. Have an item for the next issue? Leave a note for the editor on the Suggestions page. --The Interior 20:38, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Hawker Sea Fury

The article Hawker Sea Fury you nominated as a good article has failed Symbol unsupport vote.svg; see Talk:Hawker Sea Fury for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Minorhistorian -- Minorhistorian (talk) 17:32, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

The Library Survey

As a subscriber to one of The Library's programs, we'd like to hear your thoughts about future donations and project activities in this brief survey. Thanks and cheers, Ocaasi t | c 15:11, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Please return

Hi Kyteto, please consider a return. Your contributions were very valuable to, and WP:AIRCRAFT cannot afford to lose an editor such as yourself. Please assume good faith on the part of Mufka with respect to his or her words. You and Mufka were talking past each other, and I consider it disheartening that an has retired as a result of a misunderstanding. --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 02:13, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry Phil, but I really couldn't hack his increasingly personal comments about my attitude (which was frankly none of his business to be commenting on); I struggle to find the Good Faith in branding me ungracious and over-sensitive; and he certainly did not express an ounce of regret or conciliation either during nor after the fact. The only thing that I could do in the face of his.......contributions in my direction was to quit editing. I wish it had been a misunderstanding, but I really don't see some of the comments as having the slightest element of being constructive or positive. I didn't come here to be bullied by him, and there's no guarantee he's not going to make more needless (at least in terms of good faith), condescending, passive-aggressive comments. I can't come back, because I don't want to receive or to accept that shit. Before I forget, have a good new year, thanks for checking on me. Kyteto (talk) 19:42, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi Kyteto and all the very best to you for 2014. I would echo the above comments and pass on some advice from a book I received for Christmas ("An Astronaut's Guide to Life" by Chris Hadfield). When faced with personal attacks from a colleague, he realised that the problems were the colleague's, not his, and that they seemed to stem from the colleague's insecurity. "It was a happy day for me when that astronaut left the office, but in retrospect, I learned a lot from him. For example, that if you need to make a strong criticism, it's a bad idea to lash out wildly; be surgical, pinpoint the problem rather than attack the person." I know that these remarks would be better addressed to the other person in this case! Why not try to ignore the other guy's attacks - I had a spell of such treatment some years back and decided that it was his problem, not mine: water off a duck's back! I moved on to other areas. Whatever you decide, I am very grateful for all the excellent work that you put into the Lebaudy Patrie article, taking over when I had run out of ideas (secretly I had hoped that you would move it on to FA status)! I hope that I thanked you at the time! All the best for now. --TraceyR (talk) 21:28, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
We'll miss you on WikiProject Aircraft. I hope that after a break you will consider coming back and work with us there some more. There are vexatious people everywhere, in clinical practice I learned that it usually turns out to be their mental health issue, not yours. - Ahunt (talk) 21:34, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
OK, so Mufka I don't think is going to do anything about this (and I don't think you should take his comments personally). With that in mind, what will get you to return? --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 01:00, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Happy New Year! Glad to see to back editing, Kyteto. Thanks as allows for your copyeditting and other editing here. Let us know if you need help with any articles (or this problem user if it continues). -Fnlayson (talk) 16:48, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

McDonnell Douglas AV-8B Harrier II

Welcome back Kyteto, it's good to see you editing again. McDonnell Douglas AV-8B Harrier II has just been made an FA yesterday! Thank you for your 53 contributions. You should have responded to my message above, because I would've tried to get one of your most-edited articles to FA to get you to return. Cheers --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 06:01, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, I didn't want to respond immediately as I was off trying to find myself and what I enjoyed doing here again - It takes some time to think for me I'm afraid! If it's a challenging article to improve upon that you're after, I do happen to have just the thing; something that has been on my list of articles to overhaul since 2011. An article that I feel is really underdone considering its importance, the Airbus A300, the original aircraft produced and sold by Airbus. In my opinion, there are few articles I've wanted to overhaul left and this is perhaps the biggest one of the lot. If you feel like taking it on one day, let me know - I'll be happy to collaborate in finally working on getting it done properly. Kyteto (talk) 18:12, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
I was thinking I'd get one of your Harrier articles (Sea Harrier) to FA, since I am familiar with the aircraft. Regarding A300, it might take a while for me to collect the print sources. What sources do you have on the aircraft? If you don't, please collect them and tell me when you're ready. Atm I'm leaning towards the Sea Harrier, since it's an interesting aircraft that I can handle. Thoughts? --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 01:07, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
I think the Sea Harrier would be a good bet - it is a truly iconic aircraft, and IMO is the definitive version of the Harrier, or at least my preferred incarnation of the type. The Sea Harrier was actually my first fight aircraft article I overhauled, roughly four years ago or so; it would be nice to return and elevate it with what has been learnt working on many others since then. Unfortunantly, my print sources are quite numerous and have been in storage since October, I would have to hire a van to move them to my current location and begin reviewing them. There's likely something in there, I don't even know as much a five per cent of the books in there; it was a big collection assembled by multiple people over 30 years... Kyteto (talk) 13:46, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Interesting, what kind of job do you do that would involve several people collecting books? Could you give me a full list of the books, *if* you can? --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 22:30, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
I only wish I had a full list myself; even if it only took five minutes to write down the details of each book, I'd be there for tens of hours - it could take a week or more of straight effort, there are half a dozen bookcases full of the stuff. I occasionally pull books out at random, and discover books on Polish Aircraft during World War One and other such wild titles. As I was not the person who collected but a few of them, I really do not know what is in there; and I'm currently more than a hundred miles away from that building. It isn't a job that brought me these books, just the unfortunate demise of more committed individuals than me - I would trade all those books and a hundred fold more to have them back, possessions are meaningless compared to people. Kyteto (talk) 23:25, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry to hear that. --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 00:02, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Timeline

OK, so we are looking at a cooperative project that seeks to improve several articles. Now I want to put a timeline on it so the project can be better managed. We've agreed to work on Sea Harrier and Airbus A300, and it looks like Saab JAS 39 Gripen could be added to the project as well. I propose that we get:

  • Sea Harrier to A class by 31 March, and to FA by 30 June.
  • Airbus A300 to GA by 30 April.
  • Gripen to A class by 31 March.

What do you think? --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 00:15, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I think they're good targets. A great deal of content creation from scratch is needed on the A300, while the Sea Harrier is more or less the same as it was back when I was less skilled at article editing in 2010. The Gripen's a mature article that's pretty much ready to go, if it wasn't for the tetchy 'recentism' issues that dog present day fighters (The uncomfortable, and undue 'Failed Bids' section, basically) - I've seen some good proposals on how to resolve it though. My instinct says to go with the Sea Harrier first, a significant rewriting of the Development and Design sections is sorely needed. If you want to proceed with a Gripen nomination in the next few weeks, do note that I'll be unavailable for roughly ten days at the end of the month, work won't be kind on me at that point in time. Kyteto (talk) 01:07, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
I agree. Sea Harrier is lacking in content. And the referencing needs to be cleaned up. The Gripen needs some restructuring because of as you said the recentism issue. You try to collect as many issues as possible, while I go through HighBeam and the Flight International archives to get a better understanding of the Harrier. I've also requested several print sources from my local library. It'd take me like a few weeks to start overhauling the page. --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 03:59, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

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Volvo RM12

Kyteto, I moved much of the content you added yesterday to the JAS 39 article to the new Volvo RM12 page. I did give attribution in the edit summary, but if you want, you can add an attribution template to the RM12 talk page. If you want to restore any of the content I removed from the JAS 39, that's fine with me. I was just trying to keep the engine-specific content to a minimum to avoid redundancy to the new page. Anything you want to add to the new article is fine with me too, since you just did some research on it, it should still be fresh in your mind. Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 15:45, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm fine with that, I approve of your changes. You've also caught some of my mistakes, which is also good. I had been writing on the assumption that the RM12 article did not exist, you have brought it back and furnished it in a most agreeable fashion. I was concerned it was getting too specific as well, moving the detail across to the dedicated article makes sense. I've made some corresponding changes, nothing major, to the Gripen's engine subsection. Thank you for contributing. Kyteto (talk) 16:07, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
No problem. - BilCat (talk) 16:48, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

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Article Overhaul

Would you like to work on the J-20 article? I need some help with the Characteristics, Engine section. The style for much of the article is written poorly, lacks a uniform tone, and is a amalgamation of several contributions. I already improved the article by a great deal, but there's still a lot of work to be done. thanks

Dark Liberty (talk) 18:22, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

I can certainly take a look at it and see what sections of it appeals to me; it would be a new style of aircraft article to work on. No promises, but I'll try and clock some time on it in the next few days. Kyteto (talk) 19:46, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Almost done with all sections except Stealth and Strategy, but I will need some assistance on the short Avionics and Armament sections. I haven't touched those yet, because of the nature of the material. Dark Liberty (talk) 08:37, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Ok, thank you so much for your help on the article. I spent a ton of time peering over your edits word for word, and they were excellent. The only changes I made were in the Robert Gates' visiting section because I wanted to retain the original context of the article, not because I wanted to override any edits.

I split the paragraphs a bit because the article is still new, and I did not want to cluster-fuck it together, haha. Otherwise, people will blame me for shortening the article (I already shaved more than 10 kilos off). We can always change that later on. Dark Liberty

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A barnstar for you!

Tireless Contributor Barnstar Hires.gif The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
"This Barnstar is awarded to especially tireless editors who contribute an especially large body of work without sacrificing quality."

Awarded to you for your extensive efforts and industrious contributions to Aircraft-related articles. Faizan 19:07, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Especially your work at CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder is highly appreciated. Faizan 19:07, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Question

Hello,

I am doing research for a computer project,

How do I effectively re-write this section without having to state Gigabyte twice in the beginning of both paragraphs? I value your input on writing and style. I'm thinking of scrapping that long list completely, because it does nothing to convey meaning, and creating separate sections for a few important categories. Also, I think the two paragraphs could be merged if there is no important content.

https://en.wikipedia.org/php/SummaryGet.php?FindGo=Gigabyte_Technology

"Gigabyte designs and and manufactures motherboards on AMD and Intel platforms, and also makes graphics cards with AMD and Nvidia GPUs, including the Geforce GTX 880M and Radeon R9 290X.

Gigabyte's products also include desktop computer, laptops, tablet computers, ultrabooks, server motherboards, server racks, optical drives, monitors, keyboards, mice, cooling components, mobile phones, personal digital assistants, networking equipment, power supplies, and computer cases.

thanks in advance.

Dark Liberty (talk) 23:45, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I've made the desired change to the wording, this sentence style avoids the un-ideal repetition you mentioned. This topic is a little bit outside of my usual expertice, but I'll be happy to answer questions and might make further edits - tuning the wording of something is more difficult without sound knowledge and understanding of a given topic; and I haven't studied into Gigabyte's history or product range by any means, although I have used a few of their motherboads in the past. Kyteto (talk) 11:25, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

A340

I've been concerned over recent additions made to the A340 article by User:JacksonRiley; the sources cited do not support the edits he's making. On reviewing the recent history, I noticed you [expressed some similar doubts.]

Discussion on the talk page leads to nothing but hand-waving and doubletalk. Perhaps this new editor hasn't fully grasped the need for reliable sourcing and is supremely confident in his own internal views: laudable, but not quite the thing.

If you have a moment, could you give an opinion? JR's edits seem to be aimed at boosting positive mentions of Boeing products within this Airbus article. Thanks. --Pete (talk) 19:36, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

My apologies for not involving myself to a greater extent on this, I just didn't feel like jumping into an edit-war with somebody who incapable of tolerating anything but 100% of their additions being placed into the article. The situation appears to have continued on regardless of the consensus of many other editors that has since been arrived at, I don't think I can do anything to change the situation - he's going to edit war regardless, sadly. I doubt he'll last long if he doesn't begin to take other editor's existences into account. Kyteto (talk) 11:27, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

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Ghost deletions

I disagree with the massive reversion you did to the GHOST (vessel) article after I added information. That reference story and text put in important backstory and added design information to it. You're able to change the text yourself if you see it's too similar to the reference story or if something doesn't seem to take an impartial view, but simply getting rid of it all cuts a huge chunk of information from the page. If you would, undo your edit and change what you feel isn't right. America789 (talk) 13:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I removed it because I had serious concerns that we were going to be sued. We cannot write 25 lines straight out of one source, some mouthing the declarations practically word-by-word. It's important to develop new content and this history, I agree, but this has to avoid direct copying, and some sentences were so close that I would find it very hard to dispute it being labeled as 'blatant'. I have restored the content, and taken the time to edit this - but it's not good enough in my opinion. The POV issues have been toned down and need to be addressed, the facts of other sources need to be woven into the section, and lines from this source should be expunged where unnecessary, replaced with content from new cites if desired.
It's way, way, way, way too much from one source, even now - and it cannot be left as it is currently. The work to clean it up can't just be dumped entirely on other editors either - an editor is the primary person responsible for their own additions, I don't particularly want to be running around with a pooper-scooper cleaning up legally-infringing messes and the originator not giving two tosses and not doing anything to clean this stuff up. Eventually, I get tired of silently cleaning messes of any size and scale, and in the cases of when a whole section is one big smelly copy-vio problem, I tend to favor removing it until its redrafted. Partly because the policy on potential Copy-Vio issues say we cannot leave these things in place and I don't think I'm up to solving it even with reasonable editing efforts, and partly because we don't want to be shut down when the owner presses a credible case against us. Kyteto (talk) 18:33, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

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Edit request for Sophie Hunter page

Hello! Can I ask a favor, please? Regarding Sophie Hunter's page, in her infobox J. E. B. Seely, 1st Baron Mottistone is listed as her "maternal great-great-grandfather", if you double-check the source, Seely is actually only his "maternal great-grandfather". In her Background (Family) section, it also lists Seeley as "great-great-grandfather", can you please be so kind and remove the extra "great" to make it accurate? And describing Seeley as "World War I hero" can be considered fluffing and violates neutral point-of-view. The page should plainly describe him as a politician. Thank you very much for your consideration! Keep up the good work here on Wiki! 59.152.169.240 (talk) 11:16, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't normally touch biographical articles of living people - there's a nasty legacy of legal ugliness which I don't want to dive into right now. It might be better to take this up on the article's talk page, or if you feel confident you can perform the edit yourself. Kyteto (talk) 12:02, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

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Editor's barnstar

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For your focused efforts towards making articles as concise and readable as possible. Keep up the good work! Skyraider1 (talk) 16:19, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

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Reference errors on 10 May

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There is a DR/N request you may have interest in

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard under: Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Talk:Eurofighter Typhoon#RCS_1.2F4_that_of_Rafale regarding a content dispute on the issue of Eurofighter Typhoon#Radar signature reduction features Mztourist (talk) 03:40, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

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Further reading section for Acela

I'm not sure why you re-added those two books as a further reading section. Neither of them deals primarily with the Acela, and they're both over a decade old at this point. (Vranich, besides being known as one of the most anti-rail zealots out there, completely misses the Acela's effects on modal trends and operating profits. Listing him is practically POV, though I doubt you intend it that way.) As far as I can tell, they don't actually add anything of value to the article. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 20:11, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I just didn't like the reason given for the removal - practically speaking, every single 'Further Reading ' section on this site can be reasoned away as "not needed". Why does a source have to be published in recent years to be notable, I haven't caught onto why a source that's a decade old becomes invalid; I frequently call up books over 70 years old dependent upon the topic, I've encountered some texts written in the 1960s on an aircraft topic (for example) that couldn't be matched by anything in print today; why does the age matter? And a source can have a negative outlook upon a subject, not only those that praise the topic at hand should be included in an article. I didn't know of his negativity, but I wouldn't give that a reason for striking his work, and more than someone who was passionately for the system anyway. Perhaps it would be better to discuss this and for more editors to share opinions on the article's talk page? Kyteto (talk) 16:40, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
I too use older sources at many times. My 1950s copy of The Railroad Station is one of my best. The reason that Vranich is less valid as an older source is that almost his entire argument is based on things that have completely changed since it was written. It's perhaps marginally useful as a look at how the Acela was viewed in 2004, but it's no longer a source that can be taken seriously. Additionally, both sources aren't primarily about the Acela, and their relevance there (rather than on the Amtrak article) is not obvious. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 02:11, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Reason for deleting citation

re the deletion of a citation wrt this diff for article Aérospatiale Gazelle, this was because what I rewrote, that the Gazelle could carry four HOT missiles or a fuselage side mounted 20 mm gun, but not both was at odds with the previous version, which was that it carried both, and that the gun was nose mounted. It would have therefore been wrong for me to use the previous citation to support what I had written as I do not have access to that source and it would have been disingenuous, by ascribing something I believe to be true of being a fact verified by the source. If you still have access to the source and are satisfied that that source supports what is now written by all means let the citation stand. However, if what you read in the source does not agree with what is now in the article, either revert my edit, in which case the onus is on me to find a source that rebuts yours, or, if you now doubt the veracity of the source leave it out.--KTo288 (talk) 09:25, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

It took less than five minutes to find this source online, it might have been an idea to try looking it up before concluding it was inaccessible. Anyhow the source specifically says "equipped with a 20-mm nose mounted cannon". The cite also covers other information in the section regardless. Kyteto (talk) 10:11, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
Then the source is wrong, the ALAT Gazelles, which is what this source is referring to, thanks for the link, had either the gun or the atgws. We don't have a good picture of it ourselves on Commons, but the picture here will give you an idea of how the gun was mounted.--KTo288 (talk) 13:25, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
Are we certain that that it absolutely must be incorrect and that other rational explanations could not exist e.g. there having been more than just the one cannon configuration used over the last 40+ years of service? Kyteto (talk) 17:30, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

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Sopwith Camel

Just a note about the image File:SopwithSerienfertigung.jpg you added to the article, the aircraft in the front are actually Sopwith Salamanders ! MilborneOne (talk) 21:50, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

It looks like the next row are Sopwith Snipes so I have asked at WP:AIRCRAFT if anybody can find any Camels in the photograph, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 22:10, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

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Merry, merry!

From the icy Canajian north; to you and yours! FWiW Bzuk (talk) 21:36, 26 December 2016 (UTC) Lights ablaze.JPG

Reference errors on 28 January

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Attlee

Hi there and well done with all the aircraft edits. Looking at some of them, it occurs to me that, if you are writing about that country and that period, you might want a reminder that Clement Attlee is spelt thus - An A, 2 Ts, an L, 2 Es. Atlee is wrong, for Clem anyway. I really hope this helps; best wishes DBaK (talk) 00:54, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

My apologies for making that mistake. Kyteto (talk) 17:35, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
No worries at all - just hope you find it useful to know! Happy Editing and best wishes DBaK (talk) 18:25, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

S.E.5 and Foster mounting articles.

Noticed your constructive editing of the S.E.5 article - just on the off chance you may be interested...

I have a rewrite of the one on the Foster mounting nearing completion in my sandbox - https://en.wikipedia.org/php/SummaryGet.php?FindGo=User:Soundofmusicals/sandbox which may or may not be of interest. In common with other articles I have worked on from (more or less) scratch like this I have written the text first and will be adding the verifiability later - appreciate if you could add any comments you might have, including any possible outright errors, either to my talk page or the one to my sandbox. Most welcome help of all would be usable references, anything you think I should read etc.

Thanks (and Hi!) --Soundofmusicals (talk) 04:24, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi there. This would be a very significant improvement to the article in question; it's basically nothing short of a complete top-to-bottom re-write - I would encourage you to work on this and to submit it as the live version in the future. I looked over it, and do have some suggestions, although WW1 aircraft are still something I'm learning on (I'm not as up on them as their 1950s brethren). I'm assuming citations will be more prevalent in the finalised version; when I was a young editor here working on things like the Eurostar article I was encouraged to have at least one citation per paragraph of text, and this has become a convention I've tried to move many articles towards since during my own overhauls. I have some specific wording tweaks as well: "Before the ready availability of a reliable synchronization gear" I'd tweak to "Prior to the ready availability of reliable synchronization gear". I was also inclined to suggest "While Albert Ball, at least, continued to use the upward firing technique for some of his last victories, other pilots remarked on the great skill and marksmanship needed to bring this off in an S.E.5" to "While Albert Ball continued to use the upward firing technique to achieve some of his final victories, other pilots remarked on the high degree of skill and marksmanship required by this tactic in an S.E.5".
On sources themselves, if you can find them, I'd recommend something like "Early Aircraft Armament: The Aeroplane and the Gun Up to 1918" or "The Aircraft Cockpit: From Stick-and-string to Fly-by-wire" - I don't own these though. I did a quick search online and was able to find what appeared to be some useful information in this book, "The First Air Campaign: August 1914- November 1918". Is that of any help? Kyteto (talk) 23:33, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for your interest and encouraging remarks. I will indeed be adding a good few references - although in good fashion I will be concentrating more on ensuring that any specific points requiring verification get a reference rather a mechanical "one reference per paragraph". While I honestly can't see that "prior to" is better than "before" in the context here I do accept that "bring this off" is a little colloquial, even dialectal - I'll closely consider replacing it with something a little more formal next time I go through what I have written. A couple of the references you mention are in fact already part of the extensive aeronautical library I will be drawing on in the final (referenced) version when I unleash it - the first one is probably my major source in fact - the remaining one might be well worth my getting hold of, if only to "bulk the bibliography". (Whose getting "mechanical" now!) Never mind - thank you again for your kind and helpful response, and very best wishes --Soundofmusicals (talk) 01:03, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

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Copying within requires proper attribution

Information icon Thank you for your contributions to. It appears that you copied or moved text from Short Stirling into Handley Page Halifax. While you are welcome to re-use's content, here or elsewhere, Wikipedia's licensing does require that you provide attribution to the original contributor(s). When copying within, this is supplied at minimum in an edit summary at the page into which you've copied content, disclosing the copying and linking to the copied page, e.g., copied content from [[page name]]; see that page's history for attribution. It is good practice, especially if copying is extensive, to also place a properly formatted {{copied}} template on the talk pages of the source and destination. The attribution has been provided for this situation, but if you have copied material between pages before, even if it was a long time ago, please provide attribution for that duplication. You can read more about the procedure and the reasons at Wikipedia:Copying within. Thank you. If you are the sole author of the prose that was moved, attribution is not required. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 23:28, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I was the contributor of the original paragraph in the Short Sterling article as well. Kyteto (talk) 13:12, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

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Copyvio on Gloster E.28/39

It appears that you copied a huge chunk of text from here into the article. Did I make a mistake? d.g. L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 20:09, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

I think you did. I took the paragraphs in question from the Gloster Meteor article on - paragraphs I wrote myself several years ago. The blog you're linking appears to have copy+pasted several Wiki articles on it. Kyteto (talk) 20:11, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
My apologies. I hate it when people just steal from without even accrediting it. d.g. L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 20:23, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
No problem, there's a lot of unattributed 'taking' of material from this site - it's very hard to work out what is originally from where, believe me; citing some of the stuff that gets on here has been a real pain at times, and sometimes you can never find formal sources for it! Kyteto (talk) 21:01, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

The Fokker Scourge article

I am having a few problems with an enthusiastic but at times very dogmatic editorial colleague on the Fokker Scourge article. If fact, things have reached a pass where some second opinions might be useful. The specific question he is hammering at the moment is that we shouldn't ever say "No. 1 Squadron RAF" (in spite of that being the usual way of putting it) but "1 Squadron" (on the grounds that the "No." is redundant). I wouldn't object to an occasional omission of the "No.", if only for elegant variation, but he has been going right through the article wiping every instance and claiming that "is not a source" (which is true enough, but nothing to do with the case). The gentleman concerned has been making dozens of other (mostly very pettifogging) changes to the article - a few have been genuine improvements, and most at least acceptable alternatives but some of have made clear text obscure, even meaningless. I have let everything he has done that is at all acceptable stand, but the really bad ones I've had to change - usually with a new version rather than a provocative revert.

I was wondering, if you have a moment, if you'd like to have a little look at the Fokker Scourge talk page (go straight to the bottom if you like) and tell me, either here, on my talk page, or even on the talk page of the article if you want to actually buy into the discussion, if I'm being totally unreasonable and should just give up. This is (for a WWI aviation article) quite a high traffic one - and I'd like to leave it in reasonable shape. At least readable, and plain in meaning (two things I value far above brevity for its own sake). --Soundofmusicals (talk) 01:04, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

This kind of dispute is concerning, but I find myself reluctant to actively engage. I'm concerned that bringing my attitude on the topic might not bring things to a resolution. Sadly with the user involved, I've learnt to back off and stop trying. Kyteto (talk) 01:09, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Vickers Vimy

Hello Kyteto. In the lede of Vickers Vimy it says "A deciated transport derivative of the Vimy, the Vickers Vernon, became the first dedicated troop transport aircraft to be operated by the RAF." What is the meaning of "deciated"? This word appears to have been inserted by you on 26 February 2017. See your diff.

I have searched for a meaning for "deciate" and "deciated" but without success. Electronic dictionaries suggest it is a misspelling of some other word. Are you able to fix it? Dolphin (t) 05:35, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Hello Dolphin; my apologies for that typo - it was meant to be 'dedicated'. I was typing on my laptop screen while away, rather than my normal conditions, that slip-up made it past me. Kyteto (talk) 20:09, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Many thanks. I know the challenge of working in less-than-ideal conditions! Dolphin (t) 22:31, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

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River Irwell Railway Bridge

That's an expansion and a half! KJP1 (talk) 20:24, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I do what I can for you guys; it's good to know that it doesn't get completely unnoticed! :) Kyteto (talk) 20:51, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Copyright problem on Valenciennes tramway

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Try reading this

Try reading this and maybe your monster edits wouldn't need such extensive copyediting. 188.28.117.225 (talk) 11:52, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

"It was decided that joint station should be developed to replace both stations" Does that really seem like good English to you? Perhaps you ought to remove the log from your own eye before picking at the splinter in mine. Considering your behaviour, seemingly solely in pursuit of me through over a dozen articles, I'm thinking that your edits are less about improving quality and something quite more stalker-ish. Kyteto (talk) 19:26, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry Kyteto, but I have to agree that your writing is extremely obtuse, and often unsuitable for an encyclopedia. I have just had to rewrite your additions to Catch Me Who Can. They were extremely convoluted, and used language which is decades out of date. We are writing a modern, clear encyclopedia and need to use modern, clean language. For example, your paragraph:

During the late 1700s and early 1800s, the inventor and mining engineer Richard Trevithick played a major pioneering role in the development of what would become known as the steam locomotive.[1] He soon became was enthused with the purpose of presenting and popularising his new invention to the general public, this being the steam locomotive. Following a period of thought, Trevithick devised a concept for the establishment of a suitable demonstration of his new motive engine; this called for the building of a suitable site on open ground near to a populated urban centre from which people could readily travel to view and ride upon the ground-breaking self-propelled vehicle

I replaced this with:

During the late 1700s and early 1800s, the inventor and mining engineer Richard Trevithick was the primary developer of the steam locomotive.[1] He wanted to present his new invention to the general public, and he looked for a suitable site to demonstrate his invention

Notice how your text uses the phrase "steam locomotive" twice in the first two sentences. It then says "he soon became was enthused" which is clearly wrong. It then says "enthused with the purpose of presenting and popularising his new invention to the general public" notice how much clearer "He wanted to present his new invention to the general public" is - there is no need to say "this being the steam locomotive" here, it's just pointless repetition. Then you say "Following a period of thought," - how do you know that? It appears to be your supposition about Trevithick's though processes. Then "Trevithick devised a concept for the establishment of a suitable demonstration of his new motive engine" which is a hugely complex way of saying "Trevithick decided to demonstrate his invention". Why the obfuscation? Then a further sentence that is unnecessary, and finally, because you've already used "steam locomotive" twice in the paragraph, you tie yourself and your readers in knots with "ground-breaking self-propelled vehicle".

All unnecessary if you write simple, clear sentences. I agree with User:188.28.117.225 that your work is not helping the encyclopedia. I also agree that User:Tony1/How to improve your writing is a resource that will help you and, most importantly, your readers. Railfan23 (talk) 19:26, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

I could raise my own concerns about your simple and clear re-writing. It has merits, including the fixing of a daft one-word typo I made. I also think it's a step back to not mention the conditions to which he looked to conduct such a demonstration under - that reasoning has been simplified out of existence, and I find that a shame; it was saying more than just 'he wanted a demonstration', as this was a unique bit of kit for the era, it wasn't exactly obvious as to how to demonstrate it - the concept had to be devised from scratch. I worry that "the primary developer of the steam locomotive" is not a claim made or supported by the existing citation, and really should be cited to something that expressly says this - it might not be factually correct, and that's something I consider more serious than the styling of words that you are objecting to. Normally I'd take that up, but frankly you've demotivated me enough to not even put in the effort; I just want to stay clear of it with the attitude I'm facing.
I never claimed my contributions to be flawless or perfect, only an attempt to improve what was there. There will be occasional wording mistakes, and there will be stylistic differences, that's only human. I didn't take the time to shit on the editor who put more effort into that article than pretty much anyone previously had. You are free to write me off and say that "my work is not helping the encyclopedia" and other such 'fuck yous' - but I tried. No wonder the number of active editors here are dropping like a stone, this is the thanks they get for ten years of trying to improve stuff. Kyteto (talk) 23:40, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) This thread was disappointing for me to read. Railfan23 and 188.28.117.225 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), there are more constructive approaches to criticism than the above. As editors clearly concerned with the quality of encyclopedic language, it would do well for you to put the same effort and concern into your interactions with fellow human beings. I am not excusing Kyteto of how they have responded here, but from how this conversation started, I am unsurprised. I am also not saying that the criticism of their prose is unwarranted. However, basic tenets of civility have been breached. "Monster edits". "Extremely obtuse". "Unsuitable for an encyclopedia". Are you to tell me you would have said that if you were all in the same room? It's clear that you all would like to make's articles better for others. I implore you to do the same for its editing environment. edit conflict with this edit Airplaneman 03:26, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Hmmm... fair enough, Airplaneman. I apologise for the tone and approach I used, Kyteto, it indeed could have been better and more constructive. Railfan23 (talk) 04:25, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
The only thing I would explain is that by "monster" I mean edits of 7000+ characters that completely change the article - and, not for the better in terms of encyclopedic style. Articles should be comprehensible to a ten year old. I think it needed to be said and I would have said the same if I were in the same room. So how would you have done it Airplaneman? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.30.142.4 (talkcontribs) 08:56, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
I thought my recommendations were implied in my original response, but I can give an example of how I may have done it:
Hey Kyteto, I encountered [link to specific edits here] and thought they introduced language that made the page harder to understand. Please let me know if you would like pointers as to how to avoid such problems in the future. Personally, I have found this guide to be particularly useful.
As I mentioned in my original post, there's a problem with civility here. Maybe we don't need to make the editing environment suitable for ten year olds, but we certainly should strive for an environment not filled with comments easily construed as hostile. Airplaneman 18:56, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

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In appreciation

Aviation Barnstar Hires.svg The Aviation Barnstar
By the authority vested in me by myself it gives me great pleasure to present you with this barnstar in recognition of the work you have been doing on aircraft articles. Please keep up the good work. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:41, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
This helps, it has sometimes seemed like a thankless task, especially with some trolls out there. I'm near the end of this journey, I hope it has helped people. Kyteto (talk) 22:11, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

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curti zephyr and global express

Thanks for keeping the existing layout, it helps understanding the differences! I think we're doing a good job.--Marc Lacoste (talk) 08:07, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I didn't think I was doing a good job, seemed harsh out there. Kyteto (talk) 22:05, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
Your "redrafts" are harsh too, but it's the way works collaboratively. Better this way than not doing anything.--Marc Lacoste (talk) 05:48, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

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Season's Greetings

Season's Greetings (small).jpg FWiW Bzuk (talk) 02:51, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Bill, that CF-18 appears to have got pretty close to him this year! Be sure to enjoy yourself. Kyteto (talk) 22:25, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

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Wikiwings

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For amazing work making sense of Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II. - Ahunt (talk) 01:35, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
This makes me thing, that article was one I deliberately refused to do much about with over have a decade. Of all 100 articles overhauled this year, I wouldn't have expected that one to be an article I could make a meaningful impact upon. Perhaps my concepts, and my areas of focus, have been incorrect. I ought to do some reconsidering of how I've been editing, perhaps my move into the move obscure and niche as of recent years has only made me more of a target to trolls whereas busier ones would have been safer and more overseen - maybe I can make a more positive impact there too. I've gone through most of the list of articles I intended to cover some time ago, and critics seem to be more numerous than supporters at times. Perhaps I should have appreciated certain things more in my time. Thank you for your long term support. Kyteto (talk) 23:01, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
Certainly some interesting thoughts you bring up. Your contributions are appreciated! I have found on that if you never annoy at least a few people each week, then you probably aren't trying hard enough! Since you didn't ask, my advice would be to work on the subjects that make you happy to work on, and don't pay much attention to the naysayers. - Ahunt (talk) 03:00, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

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Hovertravel

Hi, I see you are making a number of edits to the article on Hovertravel. Could you describe your edits with something a little more helpful than "tune", which is meaningless. Ta Murgatroyd49 (talk) 09:38, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

You could have inquired what "tune" meant in my convention prior to declaring it to be meaningless. The point is noted, controversial/complex edits ought to have detailed edit summaries. Kyteto (talk) 22:56, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

F-35 article tuning

Hi there. I've made some substantial changes to Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II since you've last edited it. I'm wondering if you want to do one more editing pass on the article, and whether you think it's a viable candidate for GA nomination. Steve7c8 (talk) 01:33, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I'll see what sticks out to me; its become increasingly hard to edit it as eventually 'content fatigue' sets in from processing the same material over and over again it seems! Kyteto (talk) 03:57, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
Totally feel you, I can take a break from it myself to be honest. I did manage to tone down one of the most bloated sections though, Testing. Cut ~13kB from that section alone. Also cut quite a bit from Procurement and international cooperation and moved that under the development section. On the subject of GA, it seems like the quality standard is a bit...volatile. Certain articles (like the Su-57) don't really meet the mark in my eyes. Steve7c8 (talk) 07:19, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

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Wikiwings again

Wikiwings2.png Wikiwings
For taking advantage of the COVID-19 situation to overhaul and improve a huge number of articles. - Ahunt (talk)
The silver lining of a global pandemic I suppose! There's always been a lot that I've intended to do, but with the world going into lockdown, these kind of projects can be moved up (as long as food doesn't run out). I hope the normal situation resumes though, being able to get out there in the world is something I greatly miss. Kyteto (talk) 12:22, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
Me too, but at least is getting better fast due to this! Keep up the great work! - Ahunt (talk) 13:33, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

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Personal note

has over 6 million articles now, so we can reasonably assume that no one person has looked at them all, much less edited them. The largest watchlist I've heard anyone having is 50,000, and mine was over 30,000 at one point last year. It's easy for articles on obscure topics that probably shouldn't exist, and stubs on good topics, to do so for years without much attention. But when someone starts to improve those articles, then others often notice them, and realize that perhaps the topic isn't notable. The reverse just happened in the past two days with a not stub being AfDed, rescued, and vastly improved to the point its notability wss obvious.

It's hard sometimes not to take personally an article getting negative attention after you have worked hard on improving it. That's natural. But don't let it discourage you to much.

I don't think it's cowardice to want to avoid AFDs and other controversies about articles. Many people on have a "battleground mentality", and see every AfD as a battle to be one for their deletionist POV, or whatever editing POV they have. They are like lawyers who forget that the point of their job is justice, not wins. I try to avoid that too, but sometimes it's hard, as I'm quick to dig in my heals when something blows up. - BilCat (talk) 21:29, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I feel exactly as you do, especially those last two paragraphs. I've strove to avoid article creation so avoid such discussions, or letting myself be dragged into explosive situations normally. Its very draining when they do happen, when I feel such efforts are normally better spent on trying to get articles up to being a better version of what they can be - there is virtually no end to the tide even if time sat still, which it most certainly does not. I've tried to make a difference, maybe I am deluding myself for thinking so, but I've certainly garnered some critics over the years. Presuming Coronavirus doesn't take me out, there is still much to do! Kyteto (talk) 18:44, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
User:Kyteto said: I've tried to make a difference, maybe I am deluding myself for thinking so. No, you are doing a great job, much valued work! - Ahunt (talk) 21:35, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
Concur. No matter what a person does on, there's going to be someone who disagrees with something about it. If you need help with some user problems, just let us know, even by e-mail. One reason I dug in on our recent problem was to keep the other user off your back. I've had run-ins with him before, and while he is generally a good editor, he can be a bit "combative" at times. I try not to take it personally, but sometimes it can't be helped. I took off 8 months just because the daily wiki-grind was too much. I'm trying to pick my battles better now, but that battle needed to be fought there. - BilCat (talk) 22:22, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
I would agree with User:BilCat,but take it a note higher: if you don't annoy at least some people here sometimes then you are probably not trying hard enough. - Ahunt (talk) 23:07, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
I purposely didn't play that high note, because I "try" very hard! - BilCat (talk) 23:42, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

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Nomination of Transall for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Transall is suitable for inclusion in according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Transall until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Courtesy note, as filer of AFD didn't do any notifications BilCat (talk) 07:08, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for keeping me informed, it is what I would expect to be done in this situation - I thought this would be the outcome. Kyteto (talk) 12:22, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
You're welcome. I've been accused of canvassing by the nominator for notifying you and the other involved editors of the article, which is something he should have done himself. It's the courteous thing to do, and that he didn't do it speaks for itself. Anyway, we'll see what happens at the AFD. I'm doing my best not to respond directly to his provocations. He hasn't yet learned that cross-examining every editor who opposes one's preferred outcome really isn't helpful in AFDs, and does more harm to one's own case. It certainly hurt his case in the SEPECAT AFD, and hopefully will in this one too. - BilCat (talk) 13:57, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

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Request

I don't know if you accept requests, or nominations, for articles that need some of your magic overhaul attention. We have one here that is an aviation article that is a real mess and needs some serious work. It is a WP:BLP, but most of it is not referenced, cannot be referenced and has been tagged for nine years. Furthermore there is good evidence that much of it was written by the person who is the subject of the article, or his publicist, (see WP:AUTOBIOGRAPHY about that subject). It reads like the plot to Beowulf. I have looked at it for a while now and think that it might benefit from your talent for this sort of total overhaul, if you are inclined: Lynn Garrison. - Ahunt (talk) 11:16, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi! This is an interesting proposal; I'll do a bit of work on it, but I doubt I'll be able to do a full overhaul - it's not what my source base is geared towards, and I lack experience in working on articles dedicated to individuals. This was partly a conscious choice, largely due to the heightened sensitivities surrounding living people that I normally avoid by not engaging in such articles! However, this particular article/job looks to be a heavily trim-based effort; some of this detail is ludicrous. I've had a read through and I'll give it an hour or so of my time. Kyteto (talk) 22:25, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Super! I am glad you are interested in the challenge. I sure you will improve things there. - Ahunt (talk) 23:51, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

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Reverts

I have zero problem with the sources being there. What I have a problem with is Ahunt reverting their removal based on a personal opinion that there was something nefarious behind me removing them. Which has nothing do with WP:BRD or WP:Consensus. WP:Consensus doesn't cover reverting people based on personal opinions about their motives. If either of you want to argue the sources I removed are somehow valuable to the AfD, I would have zero problem with that. It would be something there could actually be consensus about. "We think your edits are in bad faith so we are going to revert you" isn't covered by it though. Like I said, I removed the sources before the AfD, their removal didn't have anything to do with it, and people are allowed to edit articles before or doing an AfD. Plus, consensus takes discussion, I see none. I also don't see how you reverting me repeatedly follows the whole "reaching consensus involve an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns." How exactly are my concerns being incorporated? So I call BS on that. Also, there's the whole "assume good faith" guideline. Which neither of you are following by edit warring and personally attacking me. I guess I'm the only one that has to follow the guidelines here though. Right. If either of you gave two craps about consensus, instead of just getting your way, you would have messaged me or started a discussion on the talk page. It's not on me neither of you did. Don't cite rules as an excuse to do something that your not willing to follow yourself. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:44, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

BTW, I wasn't even thinking about the sources when I made the edit. I was just removing trivial information. The sourcing related to the information getting removed was really secondary to that. If you want to copy the sources over to AfD that's always an option, but trivial, none notable run of the mill information has no place in an article. Even if there is a current AfD about it. And like I said, there's no rule against editing articles before or when an AfD is happening. The guidelines explicitly say it's OK. There's also no precedent that I know of about restoring an article to a state before an AfD is opened either. Especially if it's in order to slant it a certain way like your doing. It would be an extremely bad way to do things if there was. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:53, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Let me start by pointing out that you've reverted me alone nine times in the last eight hours, including breaking the WP:3RR on BDC Aero Industrie: you've been a lot more revert-happy than I have, so I do find this observation more than a little ironic. You note that I haven't gone to talk space until now, and that is fair enough: Neither have you until now, for that matter: If there was any error so grevious in not doing so, then that sin is equally applicable to you as well. WP:BRD usually places the onus on starting the discussion on the editor pushing for change from the status quo e.g. deleting long-standing content from article against multiple editor's reverting. I haven't mentioned faith, good or bad, once in my edit summaries, so I'm not sure why you are putting that point to me; I will observe that continuously reverting multiple, to the extent of breaching 3RR, is probably fair grounds for considering that aspect. I would acknowledge that basically none of my contributions seem to be tolerated on BDC Aero Industrie, on the talk page or the article, there are virtually none in the current revision: that you would be unhappy to see virtually any of your contributions challenged, but be absolutely happy to see away the majority of other people's - it comes across that you value your perspective more than other people's. If you approach the situation from a outsider perspective, and saw one editor trying to pull 25% of an article's content out, and two in a short time frame pressing for it to be back in, where would you feel a majority opinion, or consensus, would fall? I've always been of the opinion that stripping an article of content in advance of an AFD is attempting to prejudice the outcome, your opinion will likely differ, and that's ok. I have noticed that you have now taken an interest in articles you've never previously edited, it seems you are now chasing though my contribution history and reverting me - to make a point I imagine: I feel this somewhat undermines the aspect of faith - this saddens me. Kyteto (talk) 14:10, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
A few things that should be pretty obvious. First, me reverting you 9 times on completely different articles is completely irrelevant to the discussion, because 3RR only applies to reverts on a single article and I did the other reverts after the BDC Aero Industrie thing. So, it's not a justification for your behavior. Since it was after the fact. Further, if you want to claim I violated 3RR the break down looks like this ""Kyteto reverted me, I reverted Kyteto, I fixed ref error, Kyteto reverted me, Ahunt restored deleted refs, I reverted Ahunt, Kyteto reverted me, I reverted Kyteto." So, I reverted you twice and you reverted me 3 times. So, if anything your the that violated 3RR. I'll note though that 3RR applies to more then 3 reverts, not 3, and neither of us had more then that. Although, you clearly did it more then I did and if you include the talk page you reverted me more then 3 times. So you would have been the one violating 3RR if either of us did.
Re "following the status quo", the status quo is deleting trivial, run of the mill, badly sourced information from articles. Especially if it's an article about a company. So that's exactly that I was doing. The status quo isn't reverting an article to a pre-AfDed state to make it seem more palpable to voters though. It being there for a while is completely irrelevant. Also, I'm not sure how I don't value other people's opinions when the reverting by you and Ahunt supposedly related to the sources that were removed and I suggested copying them over to the AfD in my revert comments. Which you ignored. Whereas, both of you ignored me when I said my edit was about removing run of the information and continued the reverting. So who really doesn't care about people's opinions here? Me when I addressed your concerns about the sources, or you when you ignored mine about the content of the article and kept reverting me? That would have been the thing to do to reach consensus, keep the trivial information out of the article and copy the sources to the AfD. Neither of you were willing to do that though. On the "stripping" I'd agree with that if it was a long article where a lot of information was being removed and the information met's encyclopedic guidelines. That wasn't the case here though. Like I said, the information was extremely run of the mill and it's an extremely short article where any edit could be called "stripping" it. As far as me reverting you to prove a point, I reverted you because they were bad edits, that's it. Don't make things personal. It's not really helpful. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:43, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm going to try and cut to the nub of the matter. I feel your stalking of my contribution history has relevance to this conversation: You raised the issue of good faith and I feel its a relevant example of the demonstrated attitude. Frankly, I feel you have quite hostile. I think you took this to a personal level when you were combing my contribution history to articles you've never shown an interest in until hours after I've edited them; it's clear you didn't randomly come across them. I'm also concerned over honesty, as your break down and some of your edit summaries are blatantly untrue. In this Revert, you claimed my revert "screwed up" the references - If you actually look at your own contribution two revisions before that, you can see where you clumsily deleted a '>' from the ref code; this was the cause of the rendering error - the fact that you leapt straight to accusing me rather than critiquing the much more extensive edits you'd made for being possible/probable causes speaks bounds - you assume the fault must have been with others, even if the code literally proves otherwise if studied. After reverting me failed to fix your mistake, you then 'fixed it' by deleting multiple citations with the edit summary "Fixed ref error" - this description comes across to me as at best misleading, but in plain language, dishonest - deleting citations to fix a screwup that wasn't there before your deletions was an appalling answer to the issue, and hiding that deletion under the euphemism of 'fixing' is underhanded, in my opinion. I also find it equally deceptive to be removing the autogenerated Undid revision xxxxxxx by yyyyyy from your edit summaries, as if you're trying to obfuscate your reversion actions from the log. It's not upfront or forthcoming, for sure.
I'm not surprised other editors, without any tip-offs or discussion with me, came across the case and reverted those deletions as well before you edit-warred them to make sure your version of how the world should be is the live revision. I believe that you've miscounted your reversions as two, because I can count three of the same content being re-deleted: one, two, three. I think you should double-check your break down. If you can find three instances of me reverting the same content you've added/removed, consider me waiting to be shown the ref diffs, because that's not how I'm reading back events; I think you are mistaken here, or deliberately conflating things to make such an accusation. You're hear complaining about being reverted several times, but you've done it to me in the same timeframe at more than double the frequency, so it comes off as hypocritical, in my opinion - the fact that you compound that with the justification of "bad edits" also comes off as arrogant, in my opinion. Considering you've had a go at multiple other editors in the last 24 hours alone for having the audacity to revert your edits, I think there's a common denominator here. Kyteto (talk) 08:04, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

I'll start off by saying that you calling me arrogant and hypocritical multiple times is extremely un-called for and violates's code of conduct. It's not OK to personally insult other users like that. Second, I'm not sure how you can claim I was stalking your edits when what instigated this was you changing the Wikiproject's class from stub, which I had edited it to before you, to B class. If it wasn't for that I really would have cared less about your edits. You can't claim this whole thing is me stalking when your the one that changed something I edited. Outside of that, I'm not sure how you can say what I'm interested in either. I do a lot of edits to company and product articles and I read a lot of them. It's ridiculous to claim I just now become interested in the topic. I edited the BDC Aero Industrie article on January 15th. Which was long before you came along and reverted me on it. So your accusation that I just got involved in this just to stalk you is completely baseless.

On my revert comment that your saying was untrue, I was in the middle of fixing it when you reverted me back to the state it was in when it was screwed up and the revert caused there to be a bunch of red code in the article for some reason that wasn't there in my edit. So, you did "screw it up." Since it made things worse and got in the way of me fixing it. That's just a fact. The reason I remove Undid revision xxxxxxx by yyyyyy is because I have it set to where I have to add a changset comment. So it won't allow to me save changesets with the default message. I also felt the need to comment about you reverting me. It wasn't an attempt to obfuscate anything, just that I can't save comments with the default message. Your seriously reaching by calling me out for that kind of non-sense though.

On the reverts, one of the reverts your citing was to Ahunt. I was under the impression that if the revert is to a different person and different content then it's not "edit warring." Otherwise, I'd be fine making the argument that both of you reverting me repeatedly was a form of socket puppet editing since both of you are involved in WikiProject Aviation, are therefore connected, and it seriously got in the way of my ability to deal with the situation appropriately. Even if not though, you reverted me three times first. So go ahead and use it. Not to mention Ahunt has edited the article a bunch of times and clearly has an agenda to keep it how he/she edited it. On your reverts, there was three of them and you did them before I me. One, Two, and Three. Which BTW was done before my third revert. So you violated 3RR before I did. I'm not sure how both of doing three reverts is me doing "double the amount" either. The couple of reverts I did on other articles isn't relevant to this because 3RR only applies to a single article.

Anyway, it's pretty clear your reading way to into stuff to try and create a false narrative that you have nothing to do with this and that I caused it all because I'm just "arrogant and hypocrite." Personally, it's not the way I would have approached this and it's definitely not how someone that is trying to make a good faith effort to resolve the situation would, but whatever. To each his own I guess. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:51, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

That's interesting, your story is inconsistent/changed regarding the ref code fix: in your summary "Your revert screwed up something with the references for some reason and I don't see you fixing it" contradicts your latest story that "you were in the middle of fixing it when you reverted me back to the state" - your edit summary clearly accuses me of creating the code error with my revert, but your story now is that you were aware of the error beforehand - either your latest version of events is a lie, or your edit summary was, they cannot be both true. False narratives indeed.
Secondly, when I look at your three examples (One, Two, and Three it is clear that Two doesn't involve the same content at all; Two was to do with the citation issue that you blamed me for creating. 3RR is supposed to be over the same content: if it didn't, then you would be on nine, if we apply the same standard. And yes, 3RR applied to one editor reverting the same content over and over, no matter how many different editor's contrary edits he is reverting. Also, in regards to Two, you essentially blamed the code blip created by your earlier deletion on me (as per your edit summary) and implied that the onus was on me to fix it, subsequently you've blamed me for actually doing as you implied in fixing it properly, by adding the missing character back, rather than just deleting two citations completely out of hand. You are blaming me for that issue both ways, and that's (arguably intentionally) impossible to satisfy.
On this strawman: "I just got involved in this just to stalk you is completely baseless" - I never said that. There was no claim that this was the root of your involvement, I claimed it was a behaviour that you escalated to. You had absolutely no prior history on over half a dozen articles, and you just turned up for the first time in some cases less than an hour after I edited, to slam out half a dozen reverts. I notice you're dodging the point, do you really expect people to believe you randomly found those articles at such remarkably coincidental timing, due to your general interest in a broad category of articles, and that you hadn't sniffed the contribution history?
If you believe that sock puppeting is happening here on the basis that two editors work on the same Wikiproject, then I would not obstruct your way to filing a request for an investigation. I know we are suitably unique individuals/I know he isn't me; thus I have a fair idea what the outcome would be. Kyteto (talk) 09:51, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Look at my edit here here where on the last line of the "Products" section it says in normal text "<ref name="Hist"/". Then look at your revert right after that here where it then says "Cite error: The <ref> tag has too many names (see the help page)." I have zero idea why it would change that way, but the fact is it did and it was because of your revert. That's not to "blame you" for it, but your revert did make the problem worse. I reverted you because I couldn't figure what exactly had caused the change and it was a lot easier to fix the original issue by just "<ref name="Hist"/" before you reverted me then figure out why it had screwed up more. And you didn't fix the issue. That's just a fact. Also, I didn't fix the problem by removing citations. All I did in my next changeset was delete ""<ref name="Hist"/" Like I've repeatedly the two citations where deleted in edits before that when I removed the trivial, run of the mill content. So, I have zero clue what your talking about. Also, the revert was 100% because it was just easier to fix the problem with my last edit before yours made it worse. That's it. Again, I'm not saying it was your fault, but your revert did alter it for some reason. It was on you that you didn't look at the article to see that it was worse off by your revert after the did it though. You also reverted me again before
Also, your revert two not being about the same content doesn't matter. It can be to different content, it just has to be on the same article. "An editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page—whether involving the same or different material—within a 24-hour period." So if my numbers are right we both had three reverts, not counting the talk page. I don't count the revert I did to fix the issue with the code, because that wasn't related to the other stuff. That I reverted you on some other random article doesn't have anything to do with it.
On the stalking thing, if I understand you correctly your claiming I "stalked" you because I viewed your edit history and reverted a few of edits due to it. If so, a few points to that. First, I never claimed I randomly found those articles. So don't put words in my mouth. Second anyone can look at anyone's edit history and anyone can edit an article someone else edited. There's no rule against that. People find and edit articles they are interested in a bunch of different ways. Finding a few through someones edit history isn't a crime or against the rules. Nor does it make it stalking. Like I said, I already edit a ton of articles in the same subject category. I also wan't aware at the time that things were going to escalate as much as they did, or maybe I would have been a little more mindful, but at the time it seemed like this was going to be a non-issue. Plus, like I said before, there's suppose to be a presumption of good faith. Your the one choosing to read bad intent into it. That said, I'm 100% sure you looked at my edit history or you wouldn't have known which articles I was or wasn't involved in before. So, it's fine if you do it, but if I do it's "stalking." Alright.
Re sock puppeting. It doesn't matter if you are "individual people." "Closely connected users may be considered a single user for's purposes if they edit with the same objectives. When editing the same articles, participating in the same community discussion, or supporting each other in any sort of dispute." You both edited for the same objective, to undermined the AfD by reverting my edit, and supported each other in the dispute by doing the edit warring at the same time and continuing it after I said I was willing to compromise by copying the references over to the AfD. You also supported each other when Ahunt left me a threatening message on my talk page. That happened to be after I messaged you to try to resolve things and which I could have easily interpreted as an attempt at intimidation. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:34, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
RE sock puppeting: You're basically arguing that if two people concur, they must be sock puppets? In that case, file the request for an investigation, rather than continuously going off at me; lets get that view accepted or dismissed one way or the other as you're too adamant to consider anything else apparently. Turning the chessboard over, if a random editor from WP:Business came along an agreed with you, would you now be calling them a sock puppet? I doubt it, because they'd be agreeing with you rather than disputing you; but its a double-standard and you know it. I also suspect you'd be unhappy if, hypothetically, you were determined to be sock puppeting for somebody's opinion aligning with you
Regarding the AfD, you're arguing now that restoring the page to its long term state is 'undermining' it, effectively prejudicing the outcome, and that you feel this is wrong, as I understand. Isn't it exactly as prejudicial to be deleting 25% of the article's content? It's another double-standard: it's fine and good when you do it as it's in line with your opinion, but when other people's opinions run to the opposite, its 'undermining' and wrong. That's why I brought up the term arrogance, you value your own opinions and actions to a higher level than diametrically identical actions being performed by others.
As for what other editors choose to put on your talkpage, don't know why you're holding me to account for that. You seem to like burdening me with accusations and sins, but I don't actually control other people, in case you hadn't realised. My recommendation is to take up the actions of others with those others, I'm sure you'd be mystified if I suddenly started telling you about the actions of random editors and how their actions should be transposed onto you; in such a circumstance I am certain you'd be unhappy. Again, a double-standard.
"That said, I'm 100% sure you looked at my edit history" Swing and a miss. Didn't have to, happy to swear that on a bible; I got alerts on the specific articles I was reverted on, their histories clearly show that in a majority of the cases you hadn't edited them ever, until then. All that's needed for that conclusion, no fishing exercise needed. My point wasn't that it's wrong to do so (re-read please) but that you had made it personal by chasing through my history, to take things beyond a single article/topic of dispute by focusing in on me specifically as opposed to the issue - you wouldn't have found such a number of those articles with that promptness any other way. That said, if you can prove your accusation, go for it.
"Also, I didn't fix the problem by removing citations" Your edit clearly shows you removing two citations from the end for a sentence. I'm not sure what else you can call it other than a removal of the cited attribution. And I do say that using an edit summary of 'fixing' as a cover for 'deletion' is a misnomer, it isn't forthcoming. "And you didn't fix the issue. That's just a fact" My edit got those two cites working normally, in a classical sense by fixing your accidentally deleted character, rather just deleting them wholesale: not sure how you can dispute that. "I have zero idea why it would change that way" well, I do - deleting the '>' that closes off the cite means that that it isn't closed off, so it'll keep running downwards until it finds the next instance of '>', then try to parse that all into cite. But, as it's not formatted to be a cite, the code won't make sense and it throws out that error message. Makes sense now?
"I don't count the revert I did to fix the issue with the code, because that wasn't related to the other stuff" versus "Also, your revert two not being about the same content doesn't matter" - my takeaway from this is that your belief is, that when you edit content that's not the same, it 'doesn't count', but when I edit content that's not the same, you're counting it differently? Sounds like a hypocritical approach to me - the difference or lack thereof should be counted like for like, not one rule for you and another for me. Kyteto (talk) 18:21, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Administrator note You need four reverts to violate 3RR. Might I suggest you two cease interacting with one another for the immediate future...? This discourse looks like a timesink. Let the various discussions elsewhere take their course. Might I also suggest that if an article which has been requested for deletion is significantly trimmed, to the objection of an editor in good standing, then that should also be noted in the deletion discussion. Adamant1, a warning: like Kyteto, Ahunt is an editor is good standing. They are entitled to edit and comment as they see fit. Please do not cast aspersions. And please don't follow Kyteto's contributions. If there is a pattern of of problems, bring that up to the proper noticeboard. You cannot take it upon yourself to address these, per WP:HOUND. Anyway, please let me know if I can be of further assistance. El_C 19:39, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

@El C: I had mentioned the need for it to be four reverts several times. Also, I'm perfectly fine not interacting with this user. There's zero reason to if every other word he writes is going to be an insult. I will say though that the article is a stub and any edit to it would have been considered "significant" if someone wanted to interpret it that way. Like above he chided me for removing 25% of the article. Which literally was only one short paragraph. Framing it that way is ridiculous sensationalizing. Otherwise, we could never edit stub articles because any edit would be "significant." Neither of them objected to the edit per say, or the content that was removed either. Most of it was about my supposed motivation for doing it. Which can clearly been seen with Kyteto repeatedly calling out my motivations in this discussion. Even in cases where I have agreed with him and after I told both of them I had zero problem with the sources being retained. Otherwise, they would have just recovered them> Plus, Kyteto would have ceased repeatedly calling me an arrogant hypocrite about five messages back and not said that I just want to get my own way in his last one.
It's pretty clear he's more concerned with doing a character assassination though. I don't care what his standing is. It still doesn't justify his actions or him repeatedly insulting me. Same goes for me supposedly following his edits. I already said I could have handled it better and probably should have left his other edits alone. Yet he continued going off about it and insulting me more over it in his last message and now your bringing up WP:HOUND for whatever reason. Clearly he rather attack me then actually settle things. On your side, it's not really helpful to invoke a rule to a user who already said they were in the wrong about whatever the rule applies to. Thanks though. I'm pretty done with this conversation. Feel free to ping me if there's anything else. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

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